This is in response to this blog post.
First, let me make it very clear that I do not condone or support in any manner the violent tactics of MNS. The deaths of north-Indians in Mumbai are tragic and regrettable. Any self-respecting Maharashtrian would find these events shameful. But, I’m equally in anguish at the fact that the failure of governments of UP/Bihar to create opportunities for their own people, to provide a secure environment for their people and industries is playing out in my home state. Equally disappointing is the fact that people from UP/Bihar only want to look at the symptoms and not the root cause.
Take for example, your reference to Shiv Sena’s role in the riots of 92/93. Did these riots occur spontaneously in a vacuum? Or should we forget the role of the Rath Yatra and the demolition of some god forsaken Babri Masjid in the Hindi heartland?
There is no doubt that Maharashtra is also inflicted by communalist forces. But, in its almost 50 years of existence, how many years do you think the BJP/SS combine was able to govern over Maharashtra? Barely 5 years.
Besides, if Bal Thackeray is so reviled for his communalist writings, how come the same people, who are now at the receiving end of the MNS campaign, won’t pip a squeak when the minority community is at the receiving end?
I’m not going to defend corrupt politicians, but let us not forget that Abdul Karim Telgi was a migrant from Karnataka. Let us also not forget that the top cop who helped him and is now cooling his heels in jail, was none other than Mumbai Police Commissioner, R. S. Sharma. Besides, inspite of these corrupt politicians has there been a loss of jobs or industries in Maharashtra?
Regarding Raj Thackeray’s statement, don’t you distinguish between statements made for political consumption and those made for galvanizing people? Which state did we see the fires in? Did Raj Thackeray ask the people of Bihar to burn trains or was it Laloo to put more pressure on Nitish Kumar?
I think the Khairlanji murders is probably one of the best examples of how things are handled differently in Maharashtra as compared to UP/Bihar. There can be no doubt that caste discrimination is rampant in many parts of India, including UP, Bihar and Maharashtra. When these brutal murders came to light, there was so much uproar in the Maharashtrian society the state government was forced to take stern action against the perpetrators. In about two years time, 6 of the accused have been sentenced to death, in spite of their political connections. Contrast this with Bihar, where people are scared to even use their last names for fear of identifying their caste.
Perhaps you might want to explain what you mean by your Bollywood jobs for Maharashtrians comment, because I’vent read anything quite as irrational lately. Is Bollywood the only movie industry in India? Who is to decide they won’t get the jobs in Marathi film industry and why? Actually, I’m quite perplexed by the fascination of people towards Bollywood. How many jobs do you think Bollywood creates and how much do you think those jobs are worth? For the kind of attitude that Bollywood biggies flaunt, Mumbai would be far better off without it than with it.
Mohit said,
November 1, 2008 at 3:49 am
I don’t support any politician , nor am I from either UP or Bihar. What is wrong is wrong and cannot be justified. This kind of counterintuitive politics should be condemned.If you go by Raj’s logic , perhaps Americans should start killing Indians , just because Indians are taking over American Jobs. You do not become competitive by killing north indians (who are supposedly taking away jobs from Maharastrians)
Put Country First and then Maharashtra
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/rajdeepsardesai/1/52784/an-open-letter-to-raj-thackeray.html
tugenensis said,
November 1, 2008 at 5:52 am
Mohit,
You are finding this counter-intuitive because you are not looking at what’s behind this agitation. Do you think Maharashtrians woke up one fine day and decided to target north-Indians? The causes behind this are mostly economic and to a lesser extent ethnic recognition.
Nowhere in my blog have I sung paeans to Raj Thackeray nor do I indulge in jingoistic slogans like “Jai Maharashtra”. I find your comments about Americans killing Indians particularly intriguing given the fact that you are yourself based in the US. You, of all the people who make these kind of comments should know about labor certification process for even temporary visas like H1B. Besides, where did you get this idea that Raj Thackeray or any Maharashtrian has advocated killing of people, innocent or other wise?
Equally interesting is your call for putting Country First, since you should also be aware that it is the slogan of the McCain-Palin campaign and see how far it is getting them with the American people. Instead of Country First, we should be saying People First, because that will guarantee fair and just treatment of everyone and not lead to discontent.
I’ve already read the link you posted, but thanks anyways. I also watched the translation that Rajdeep provided for Raj Thackerays press conference yesterday and I was so much disgusted with his interpretation of what Raj Thackeray was saying. I have lost any respect that I had for Rajdeep Sardesai for omitting important portions of the press conference or simply glossing over it.
Here’s a link in reference to DharamDev Rai’s death in the Mumbai local trains. If possible try to read it from the perspective of both sides — i.e. put yourself in the shoes of both sides.
http://www.mumbaimirror.com/net/mmpaper.aspx?page=article§id=2&contentid=20081101200811010353412338868848a
Manish Jain said,
November 1, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Blogger,
I appreciate that you don’t support the killing & brutality being done by few People (I believe its Raj Thakre). But your comment / question “where did you get this idea that Raj Thackeray or any Maharashtrian has advocated killing of people, innocent or other wise?” doesn’t goes down to my throat.
I definitely support the fact the Natives of any state, whether it is Maharashtra or United States, should get the priority on the jobs which are being created by them & for them. Don’t try to count Bollywood, IT industry or even Railways because these are national jobs & only Talent should be the criteria for the same.
The maximum nbr of Victims in Raj Campaigns are some Taxi Drivers or auto drivers, Will you ask Raj who stops any Maharashtra Native from doing the same job?
& your last statement in the post “Mumbai would be far better off without it than with it.” do you realize this is the bollywood which gives Mumbai a Unique place, not physically but psychologically.
Mohit said,
November 1, 2008 at 3:04 pm
First of all lets make it clear that “Putting Country First” slogan, is not the reason why McCain is trailing in the Polls. There are several other reasons , Palin as VP being number one reason. It would be foolhardy to think McCain is going to loose just going by the poll data.
Secondly , It is not the H1, L1 visa holders i am referring to. It is the major chunk of call center jobs / manufacturing jobs which are taking American Jobs . Still they are welcoming more foreigners to their country .
If you say people first then some person from Maharashtra will come out and shout Marathi people first , or someone from Gujrat will come out and shout Gujrati people first.
I support Shiv Sena for helping the Malegaon blast accused ( as she is yet to be proven guilty) , but I can never support MNS for their thinking that driving away north indians from Maharashtra would solve the problem.
You don’t rob Peter to pay Paul.
FYI : I had to delete your comments as it violates comments policy
tugenensis said,
November 1, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Mohit,
I agree with you that ‘Country First’ is not the reason why McCain-Palin are trailing and the idea behind my comment is not to justify the election results. If you can please read the comment again, all that I’m saying is that the slogan is not finding any support with the American people. Even if Obama were to lose, it would be equally foolhardy to attribute his defeat to this slogan. The question we have to ask is if the country comes first or its people?
Outsourcing is not just a jobs issue, it is also a trade issue. Do you think Americans would continue to outsource jobs to India if India closed its doors to American goods? You know very well how big an issue jobs and outsourcing are in this election, not just for the President but also for many Congressional seats. Besides, you should be very well aware that Americans are not welcoming illegal immigrants with open arms, who tend to come without undergoing the due process of labor certification.
As for your comment about Marathi people first or Gujarati people first, Mohit these people are giving up their farmlands for the creation of SEZs in the hope of getting jobs (please read my blog for more details). They should come first when it comes to the corresponding jobs.
Will you also support Shiv Sena, if they take up the platform of Marathi Manoos tomorrow and start beating north Indians? (Believe it or not but there is a pretty good chance of that happening.) Actually, in spite of being a Maharashtrian Hindu, I’m myself not a fan of Shiv Sena or BJP. I’m also not a fan of the Congress. Simply because some one is pseudo-secular does not imply that I should become communal or vice versa. The only aspect that I share with MNS or Raj Thackeray are the root causes behind their agitation, which just like you, opposes robbing Pratap Rao to pay Popat Lal.
I have no problem with you deleting my comments from your blog. Actually, the only reason I post them on your blog is so that you know that there is a response to your post. I, on the other hand, will continue to post your comments on my blog, so long as we are having a level-headed discussion.
tugenensis said,
November 1, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Manish,
I appreciate your comments and we can all agree that it is perfectly human to disagree. I’m concerned at your comment that you don’t quite accept that Maharashtrians/Thackeray are not advocating killings of individuals, innocent or otherwise. IF you can clarify your opinion, I can put forth my views as well.
Regarding job preference for locals, I can certainly agree to the fact that IT and such high-skilled jobs should be on the basis of merit alone, in spite of the fact that certain communities do tend to corner an unusually large no.s of IT jobs. Not all Bollywood jobs are related to skills or talent; there is a significant no. of jobs which involve purely manual labor. But, given my aversion to Bollywood I’m willing to not only concede those jobs, but the entire industry itself to any part of India, which would be interested in having them. But, Railways is a different ball game. I just can’t see the skill/talent argument being extended to Railways. Maybe you can clarify your position on that.
Regarding, what stops Maharashtrians from becoming taxi drivers? The nepotistic nexus of existing taxi drivers who will ring up a fellow from their village at the first availability of license to driver a taxi. This is nothing new when you consider other such jobs such as salesmen in shops, where invariably you’ll find persons doing the sales jobs belonging to the same ethnic community as the shop owner.
Manish, what you are referring to is the glamor of the celebrities. Beyond the name Bollywood, this industry barely rubs on the ordinary Mumbaikar. I don’t know if you have lived in Mumbai or even visited it for an extended period of time, but taking Bollywood out of Mumbai will have zero effect on the lives of average Mumbaikars. But, we will stop seeing the page 3 junk instead.
Manish Jain said,
November 2, 2008 at 3:06 am
I believe Most of the Maharashtrians don’t support killings of individuals, innocent or otherwise But Raj Thakray, he is just trying to create a place for himself & I believe he not only advocates but also asking his henchmen for killings of individuals, innocents. I, myself, lived almost 3 years in Mumbai & loved the city as I loved Newyork just because of their cosmopolitan nature.
If you ask my opinion, then I want to support the cause of locals not in Maharashtra only but also in America but things have changed quite a lot in current global scenario. Now the things which are being produced in Melbourne are being consumed in Mumbai & vice-versa. So if I am supporting this cause then I have to believe that the things which are being produced in Maharashtra / Mumbai should not be allowed to be sold outside & this applies to everything including Movies or whatsoever.
Now come to the railways point, this is the property of Republic of India not of Bihar or Maharashtra. So the job pool of Railways should be available to all Indians rather then few Maharashtrian or few Biharis.
Now my only point is, when people from across the country were working hard to make Mumbai.,the commercial capital of India, nobody was complaining & now when it has coveted title, few people like Raj want to claim his authority on this? what kind of psychology this is? Its like till loss will be shared by all but profit would be mine only.
tugenensis said,
November 2, 2008 at 6:25 am
I don’t think there can be any doubt that Raj Thackeray is a political animal just like the Laloo’s, the Mulayam’s and the Mayawati’s. I’ve lived in Mumbai for over 25 years and have witnessed even Congress politicians using violence and strong-arm tactics in totally non-political situations. So, it is futile to bet even one paisa on whether or not politicians of any hue, let alone Thackeray, resort to violence. Still, I’ve my doubts if Raj Thackeray would advocate “killing of innocent individuals”, because he knows that mainstream Maharashtrians who have traditionally never supported Shiv Sena or BJP would be wary of supporting him, if he were to indulge in such excesses. The two cases that I’m familiar with, Dharam Dev Rai and a vegetable/grocery shop owner, were both cases where none of the victims bore any external injuries. When intentional killings happen, such as in riots, you’ll see the use of weapons such as swords, spears, butchers knives, machetes, etc. We’ve seen nothing of that sort in these incidents so far. AGAIN, LET ME BE VERY CLEAR THAT I’M NOT JUSTIFYING THEIR DEATHS. I’m just saying that the deaths that have happened were ‘not intentional’. In case of Dharam Dev Rai, the assailants were not known to be affiliated to MNS (though I’vent be able to find their political affiliations at all so far) and his 3 friends, who were traveling with him, also bore no signs of physical injuries.
I’ve myself lived in north India (for short duration) and not so cosmopolitan as well as cosmopolitan cities in the US (for very long durations). And my experience was that one can have a great time in any place if you have the right crowd(friends). Whether a place is cosmopolitan or not has nothing to do with it.
Regarding your argument of tying jobs preference with trade of goods, if industries in Maharashtra are unable to sell their goods in India, they will simply make and sell products that can be sold overseas. Before the IT industry, Indias major export was garments and textiles coming out of the mills in Mumbai. I’d rather prefer a situation where all states are making an equal effort in terms of creating jobs, of controlling population, of providing a stable law and order situation for the benefit of its people. The situation today is so lop-sided that even Bhojpuri movies are produced in Mumbai. Bhojpuri movie industry should be rightly and rightfully based in Bihar, even if it costs Maharashtrians the lower rung jobs in that industry. If people of Bihar never get a chance to aspire for those jobs, they are never going to come out of their misery. If there is any way for the people of Bihar to restore their pride then it is through creation of jobs in their home state. I’ve come across many smart, hard-working and affluent Bihari’s, in US as well as India, who have accomplished great success in their fields. I simply don’t buy the argument that the people of Bihar are incapable of turning their state around. If Laloo can turn the Railways into a profitable venture, then he or other Bihari politicians should be able to turn their state around as well. However, that will need the people and politicians of Bihar to have and show the will-power to dismantle the entrenched feudal systems.
If Railways belongs to the Republic of India, who does the Republic belong to, if not its people? The vast majority of the people who tend to use the Indian Railways are not affluent English speaking, but the poor and illiterate kind.If people from only a handful of states dominate Railway jobs, how does it benefit these passengers? This fact is not lost on the government of India, and there is some commission (I forget the name) that has recommended that class 3 and 4 jobs in India should be allocated with preference to locals. The Railways, under Laloo, have refused to implement the recommendations.
Manish, many people who come to Mumbai forget that they are not just in Mumbai but also in the state of Maharashtra, just like when they goto Bengaluru, they forget they are in Karnataka. I believe that everybody has played a role in the development of Mumbai, but I’m quite piqued to listen to people belittle Maharashtrians in Mumbai. If non-Maharashtrians are the only people who are responsible for Mumbai’s success they should be able to move to any part of India and replicate such success stories elsewhere as well. Even educated people some times make juvenile comments about how the islands of Mumbai were given in dowry by some English prince, so Maharashtrians should have no claim over Mumbai. By that logic, India was ruled for almost 200 years by the British, does that lessen the claim of Indians over India in any way? You can google for a political map of Maharashtra/India to figure out how much Mumbai is part of Maharashtra. No Maharashtrian was complaining earlier because they were a significant majority in the city, it was still affordable to live in and there was no breakdown in its infrastructure. Things have changed significantly on all these aspects. Maharashtrians are not fighting to claim the credit for its success, they are fighting for its identity, its affordability, for its opportunities and for its infrastructure.
Manish Jain said,
November 3, 2008 at 12:47 am
Fellow Blogger, that means we both agree Raj Thakrey is nothing but a crap politician like Laloo, Mayawati. They are just playing their politics to divide the people.
The thing which we are not agreeing on that what are the intentions of Raj Thakrey behind whole drama. I believe he doesn’t care whether anybody hurts or dies, he just want to solve his purposes by dividing us.
your another point that the killings which happened in Mumbai were not intentional. I don’t know what to say. The only question I have is who filled this hate in the mind of those people who killed those people. For me, the person who kills somebody is a criminal but who triggers this is the main culprit. Now you may say that People of Maharashtra were suppressed & being deprived of opportunities which were grabbed by Outsiders, I wouldn’t agree because I can’t take this that a normal Marathi person will do these kind of heinous crimes unless they were misguided by these politicians.
Next thing, how much difference it makes that Mumbai is a Cosmopolitan? for me it makes a lot of difference that a city is welcoming the people of different culture. Had Mumbai not been like this, I, myself would not have been to Mumbai.
I agree that all states should make an equal effort in terms of creating jobs, of controlling population, of providing a stable law and order situation for the benefit of its people. But it doesn’t mean that if States have failed in doing that the people of that state should be beaten up & killed if they are going to other states.
Before IT, cities like Ahmedabad, Calcutta & Kanpur were the prime exporter of Textiles & garments. Mumbai was not the major exporter but it was one of the major exporters. And even that time people from across the country used to travel all these cities for a better living & I don’t see any problem in that. Its like I am working out of United states because we have more IT consumers here then back home India. So if I support Raj then I should also be kicked out of US borders because I am snatching their jobs.
Next Railways, which was the core issue of recent outburst. Railways is the property of country not states. I am reiterating, people of all the states & sects, religion & race should get equal opportunity in all kind of Central government jobs. Now as much I know, Maximum no. of Civil Service officers (IAS, IPS) come from Bihar, UP & I guess Karnataka. So do you want to say that the officer of Maharashtra Cader should come from Maharashtra only? At least I will not agree to that.
I know that that commission recommended that class 3 and 4 jobs in Indian railways should be allocated with preference to locals & I agree to that but I am not sure the exam which created the outburst two weeks ago was for Class 3 or 4 jobs only. As I am not in India, I also can’t validate the fact that the exam which was being conducted in Mumbai was for the jobs from Mumbai to Mathura (A city in UP) region not for Maharashtra only.
I am not saying that Non-Maharshtrian are the only people who made the Mumbai a place where many wants to come & work. But its not Mumbai Only, Delhi-Gurgaon-Noida also come in the same league because they are Metro cities & as most of the High end, white collar jobs are being created there only, inevitably low-end jobs also gets accumulated on these places. When I was in Mumbai, I never ask the auto-walla whether he was from Up, Bihar or Maharashtra because for me all are same & just earning their livelihood like me.
Now lets come to cost-of-living in Mumbai. Its not that people who lives in Chawl or drive taxi-auto are contributing in the inflation. Frankly its people like me & you who may get a descent salary & afford to buy things on premium if they need them. SO why to kill people who earn a meager salary & struggling like any other person like them regardless of whether they are Marathi-speaking, Tamil-speaking or Bhojpuri-speaking.
Next come to identity, I believe nobody is taking the identity of anybody else. If I started mingling with my friends in Ganesh Chaturthi then it doesn’t mean that I have lost my identity of being a Jain & other way round. Nobody should dictate which religion I should follow & what rituals I should perform with my family. These are personal & very personal. I respect all languages whether its Hindi, Marathi, Malayalam or German because all of them have same essence in themselves & that is expression of feelings but I will definitely feel offended if somebody will say that if I want to live in Mumbai I will have to speak Marathi & that’s what Raj is saying.
Buddy, this debate can go on & on and can culminate into a book, may be you would be the author
. but the only fact which makes sense for me that the fundamental rights of an Indian citizen which are described in Indian constitution say “All Indian citizens should be allowed to live & work anywhere in the country”.
tugenensis said,
November 3, 2008 at 7:19 am
Manish, most of the Indian politics has always been premised on the basis of divide and rule to create vote-banks. However, the divide that you are attributing to Raj Thackeray is not his creation. This divide was created by politicians like Laloo and his predecessors who have given preference to people from the Hindi belt. It is just that Maharashtrians didn’t speak out openly against it until Raj Thackeray came on the scene. People in the south, particularly in Tamil Nadu, have always been vocal about it. People in Maharashtra, who supported the pan-Hindi-fication earlier, are now agreeing with the opposite point of view, when they find themselves being marginalized in their own states. I’m not going to justify any kind of violence, but to say that there is no real basis for the anger amongst Maharashtrians and all this is just a mis-guided effort of a politician is nothing but a crass indifference to the aspirations of non-Hindi speaking people, which has got us into this mess in the first place. If you get a chance, you should watch Shobha De’s interview on CNN-IBN. You’ll find that there isn’t a single Maharashtrian who has come out and said that there is no basis for the anger.
Manish, you are unduly focused on the symptoms of the problem rather than the causes. Being fixated on the symptoms is not going to solve the problem. Even in the specific case of Dharam Dev Rai, do you know that the Maharashtrian villagers who attacked him and his friends had … (1) sold land to the steel plant where Rai and his friends were employed in hopes of getting jobs, (2) organized morchas, gone on fasts unto death (which was forcibly averted by the cops) when their jobs went to the migrants instead. I’m not trying to justify the deaths, but clarifying that physically hurting some one, much less killing them, was not their first or the only reaction of these people.
Manish, regarding your comment about cosmopolitanism, your criteria for a livable city requires “others” to be welcoming, while my criteria for a livable city requires that I take the effort to adjust to it. One philosophy makes a person stay only in “cosmopolitan” cities, the other allows the person to stay in any city. But, these are personal preferences so let us leave them at that.
I completely agree that violence is not the answer to the failure of some states (and going by the Dharam Dev Rai case, it was not the first or only answer). However, now the situation seems to have been escalated to the level of violence, since the non-violent approach did not yield any result. But in spite of all that has happened in the last few weeks, all that the Laloo’s and Mayawati’s can think of is extracting political mileage out of it.
Regarding your comment about previous migrations, it is only partially true, since the Shiv Sena did agitate against south indian migrants on exactly the same grounds. At that time, it was not a problem for the north Indian migrants, who never opposed it. Indeed, the outcome of that has been the creation of opportunities for south Indians in south India, rapid development of those states and an almost reverse-migration of south Indians out of Mumbai.
Your argument that you should be kicked out of the US for supporting Raj Thackeray is completely bogus, because you didn’t jump over a fence to come here. You would have cleared the labor certification which addressed a specific labor requirement. If you were here during the dot com bust, you would know how fast the situation can change about your stay in the US.
Manish, who manages the Railways is immaterial. The idea behind the Indian Railways is to provide a service to all the citizens to facilitate their movement. It should not be used as an instrument to promote hegemony of a particular state, which is what Laloo is doing.
Regarding the civil services, you are grossly underestimating the no. of people from non-UP/Bihar states who appear for these exams. You should check the wiki on ‘indian administrative services’; you’ll be quite fascinated by the cadre allotment procedure. But, as regards your question if officers for a particular cadre should come from that state, I think to a large extent it should. In particular, it definitely should for positions that involve District Magistrate kind of work for the simple reason that these officers are providing a vital service to the people of that district. If these officers are not able to connect to the people and are not able to communicate with them, then what kind of a service can they provide. Can you imagine a Bihari officer in some remote district of Tamil Nadu or vice versa? No wonder the rural population is so much dis-illusioned with the government that about 25% of the country side is only under the nominal control of the government, but in the real control of Maoists.
Yes, the Railways Recruitment Board exams were for class-3/4. There are RRBs all over the country and their charter is to recruit from their catchment area. If the jobs were not for the Mumbai RRB catchment area, they should not have been held there in the first place.
Manish, cities are not the only places where the jobs are being created. Singur is not a city and neither is Sanand. Farmers in these places are giving up their lands in hopes of getting jobs, which are instead going to migrants, typically from UP/Bihar. Meanwhile, we don’t hear of any SEZ’s coming up in UP/Bihar. Even when the Tata’s were considering moving out of Singur, the only states which showed any interest were Gujarat, Maharashtra and Uttarakhand (Pant Nagar). No one heard a squeak from UP and Bihar.
Manish, are you saying that migrants who live in chawls are not driving up the cost of living of the local Maharashtrians living in the chawls? High-rollers like you and me are not rioting in Mumbai. The people who are on the roads are the Maharashtrians who also live in chawls, who see that their livelihoods are being lost to migrants, who have to face the cost of living in Mumbai for their entire families while the migrants can work for lower pay while supporting their families that live in lower cost areas of UP and Bihar.
Manish, if you believe in the equality of languages can you justify why Hindi should be the official language of the Central government of India? Why should the central government force Hindi on public sector banks and companies? India does not have a national language and a majority of the people do not speak Hindi. If the Central government itself can force the language of a particular people on the rest of the country, then why can’t the states enforce their languages. For example, if you were to goto Bengaluru and were to file some paperwork with Karnataka government, wouldn’t you be expected to know Kannada? Besides, if you were keen on Cosmopolitanism shouldn’t you be practicing it in your home state rather than
preaching it elsewhere? After all, charity begins at home.
If this debate culminates into a book, then we can both share the rights; Maharashtrians have shared many things in the past, though times are changing now. I’m not surprised that the only things that make sense to you are the ones that benefit you and the only things that don’t make sense to you are the ones that don’t benefit you. If you are so keen on living in any part of the country, why not try living in the North East.